Poor sound quality difficult to hear interviewees
Name: Ram Piara Farmah
PA Number: PA2671/4/9
Ref: C2C/260905/INT36
Date of interview: 26 September 2005
Date of Birth: 14 February 1924
Origin: Bandala, Jullundar, Punjab, India
Gender: Male
Religion: Hindu
Caste: Tank Shatri
Came to England: 1954
Came to Coventry: 1954
Name: Raj Kumari Farmah
PA Number: PA2671/4/9
Ref: C2C/260905/INT37
Date of interview: 26 September 2005
Date of Birth: 1933 (passport says 1934)
Origin: Nakodar, near Ganda Kas, Jullundar, Punjab, India
Gender: Female
Religion: Hindu
Caste: Tank Shatri
Came to England: 1960
Came to Coventry: 1960
Language of Interview: Punjabi
Timing: Track 1-Track 17
Track 1
Can you tell me your date of birth?
Ram: 14th February 1924
Raj: in 1933, in the passport it is 34.
Where were you born?
Ram: Bandala, District Jalandhar.
Raj: Nakodar, near Ganda Kas, Railway Station. District Jullundar.
What is your religion and Caste?
Ram: Hindu, Tank Shatri.
Track 2
Why did you come to Coventry?
Ram: The purpose was we had a shop in the village for 15 years. 530 rupees used to come from England to us; we used to think those people are uneducated. They have come from farming backgrounds and they send this much money, why don't we go and try to make even more money than they are making. My father was still alive and he said why don't you go for 2-4 years. We come for that reason thinking after 2-4 or 5 years we would return back home.
When did you come here to England?
Ram: At the end of 1954. But it never turned out that we returned.
Raj: Back then who ever came just stayed here.
Ram: Her (referring to the other lady in the interview room) dad had come then.
Raj: That's when everyone came together. We came then as well.
Ram: We were all together, so there was familiarity.
When you came did you know of anyone here?
Ram: We had a friend. We came to him; his name was Chanan Singh Ghaman. He was from our village. He had come here long before everyone else. We did know some people. Then we started work. When men came over from India they had to do something, as in those days there was no social security. If you wanted to eat roti (chapatti) then you needed money in your pocket, or anything else you wanted. In 1957 the Hungarians came over and that's when social security began.
When you first reached here in Coventry what were your thoughts about this country or town?
Ram: We only came here to work.
Did you come here in the winter?
Ram: Yes in the winter. There was so much snow here then it used to last 2-3 months on the ground. Nowadays there is not as much snow.
Raj: We used to keep throwing coal in the fire.
Did you used to do this job as well?
Raj: Yes I did everything as well.
Ram: When there is work to be done you just have to it.
Were there not as many ladies here then?
Raj: There was a little.
Ram: There were only a few. When we came there were no families, then after a while we thought the children are getting bigger, we should call them over to England.
When you first came here, did you know any English?
Ram: No I had no experience I had studied it a bit. I was no graduate. I knew a little about how to read and write.
How about speaking it?
Ram: I didn't know how to speak; it was when I came here I learnt everything.
Track 3
How did you manage?
Ram: In what way?
With work?
I worked in 2-3 different places. In a Sutton factory.
What factory was it?
Sutton Coldfield. Then after this I got a job in Courtauld's Spinning Department. Then you had to fill out an application form in English, if you could do this you got the job. I worked there for 5 years. Then I started a side business. I used to go door to door. You used to have to get a Peddler Licence then.
When did you start that business?
Ram: In 1965. You had to get a licence from the police, and only then could you go door to door. One day I went to Nuneaton, knocked on a door, it was a policeman who answered, he said let me see what you are selling. His first question was "show me you're Peddler Licence first". It was in my pocket and I showed it to him.
How did you think about starting this business of pedalling?
I had the idea of pedalling from India. I was in the business line. I knew about the money you can make in your own business. When you have your own business you can make more money, than if you work for someone else.
When you came here did you get the licence quite easily?
Ram: The licence; if you can speak some English. I could write some in India already but had no experience in speaking it. But you begin to get an idea and then you start filling out the forms.
What type of things did you sell?
Ram: Shirts, ties, small things. When you get 2 shillings you know you have enough money to cover the food expenditure. Sometimes you only had to spend £1 on the shopping a week. If you sometimes felt like drinking a beer, then with only £2 you could manage a week.
You worked and did this business on the side as well?
Ram: I had the time in Courtaulds. There were shifts from 2-6, 2-10, and 10-6 in the morning. For 8 hours you were free. I found that in the side business we could make money.
Track 4
2 of us became partners and set up sewing machines. For 6 years we worked together then we separated and set up on our own.
Where?
Raj: In Birmingham we started in 1963.
Ram: 1963 in Birmingham, then 1969 we moved to Coventry.
What did you sew?
Ram: We knitted in those days, clothes with hats on (?). Then we knitted ladies trousers, skirts and shirts. Then men's trousers and shirts. We made many things. We got orders from outside. We did that type of work.
Do you feel with the experience you had in India of running your own business enabled you to have the confidence in running your business here?
Ram: I had the idea in India about setting up a business of clothes. If you are set then you can make money. Anything you do, you do it to make money.
But you had a background in this work?
Ram: Yes. For 15 years I did that work in India. From the end of 1939-1954, then here for 50 years.
In the clothing Industry?
Ram: Then Pardeep and my older son Ramesh joined us in the factory. They were educated, they were graduates of here, and then they started their own work.
When you first came here can you tell us about your house? In what way did you live?
Ram: When we first came here there was a shortage of houses. 10-12 people used to live in one house, in small houses. 2 bedroom houses, 10-12 people. In 1 and a half years I got my own house. It was my uncles from a place called Rorki in India who we stayed with nicely for a while, and then we got our own house. First it was in Spring Field Road. I've still got that house. 77 Spring Field Road. Then I got one in 18 Ena Road. Then one in Eagle Street.
Raj: 6 houses in Leicester.
Ram: That was a while a go Pardeep was small then.
Son: I was born in that house.
Pippa: In the house, oh right, not that you remember!
When you first came to England were the people whose house you stayed in from your village back home?
Ram: They were friends. More people were from my wives village. In India I had a lot of control over the clothes in over 8-10 different villages. So I was well known.
For 5-10 years we lived together very nicely. Even now, we still meet up if they are no longer around, we meet their children.
What did you do about food?
Ram: If you were hungry then you made the food and ate it. This is how it was first.
Did you know how to make roti (chapattis)?
Ram: No, I learnt how to make it here. I didn't know how to make roti I even had to ask for a glass of water there.
Track 5
When we came here we had to do everything. Come from work; make roti (chapattis), dal (lentil soup), and sabji (vegetables). What ever you fancied eating you would make it, if it was roti you made roti. We learnt everything here.
Raj: Everyone did it. Those who lived alone, some did it together some did it alone.
So before you came had they learnt everything? Did you eat English food?
Ram: Mainly roti, dal and sabji. Outside there were not a lot of places to eat, like restaurants.
Raj: At the most we would go and get Fish and chips. In that time, there were no restaurants of ours.
What about at the Courtaulds canteen.
Ram: If you worked there you got food at lunchtime. You would go and eat. They would give you vouchers. If you wanted more then you would pay for it out of your own money. It was cheap. You would spend 1 shilling and eat what ever you wanted.
Did you used to eat meat?
Ram: Yes I did.
So you did not find it hard?
Ram: Yes you had to make it yourself. When they made it (?), it had no taste. Everyone was together, so once a week we would make it. 5-6 of us would get together and make it. Once or twice a week. Then the rest of the time we made dal (lentils) and sabji (vegetables). There were not a lot of vegetables then only cauliflower and potatoes. Then after a while there were carrots as well.
Track 6
Where did you get the ration (shopping)?
Ram: From the side shops. Now there are big stores.
In that time which shops were there?
Raj: They were English shops.
Ram: Mainly it was English shops but then our people began to open them as well.
Raj: In Foleshill Road there was a shop by the Eagle Street traffic lights. Then we started to get the shopping from there.
Could you get dal and sabji (lentils and Indian vegetables)?
Raj: No not dal sabji but English food. At first they would go to London to get Ginger and Garlic.
Ram: Then we started selling dal (lentils) in Courtaulds. We couldn't get dal (lentils) in this country. We bought it from London to Courtaulds.
From Aldgate?
Yes Aldgate. From Garival's Store, they were Vasi from our village back home. We all cooperated with each other. Then we would bring the packets and sell them for a £1. The Gurdwara on Foleshill Road Nanaksar, used to be a Cinema, it used to be the only place where the pictures were shown in Indian, not even in Birmingham in those days. So everyone used to come here in Coventry to watch. Then the 3-4 sacks we had bought we would sell them there, some people would take 10 packets some 2 packets, it was hard work, you could not sleep because of all the worrying. 1-2 shillings we would save. Now you give children a £1 they say it is nothing they want £5-10 for spending alone.
Track 7
Did you sell all the packets?
Ram: There used to be a shortage sometimes, everyone felt you couldn't get them so some would buy 5 packets and some 10 packets. If 10 people live in a house, they needed 10-20 packets in that household.
What type of dals (lentils) were they?
Ram: Masar Safti, Masar, Mungi (different types of lentils). You could already get Masara di dal (orange lentils) here but none of the others.
Raj: Even the English used to make Masara di dal (orange lentils).
Ram: Then we used to have to think which dal (lentils) is going to sell. So we would bring the sacks in the van and make £1 on each packet.
Whose idea was it to sell dal (lentils)?
Ram: You have to think of these ideas yourself.
So did you have your own van?
Ram: Yes.
What year was this?
1957. A new van was £380 Austin 35 new one, for £380.
So you used it for your work?
Ram: When you want to do work you have to have the facilities.
There were probably not that many vans then.
Ram: There were 5-6 houses in Leamington. Then there were 16-17 households with Indian women, we would even go to their houses and sell to them.
You used to go to their houses to sell your goods?
Ram: Yes, there was a lot of time to spare from the Courtaulds, in the evening we kept working until 9-10 O'clock.
Did you sell only in Coventry?
Ram: Yes and in Leamington Spa. There were 8-10 families here.
Raj: Nearby.
Track 8
How did your work start in the van?
Ram: When I realised you cannot get these things from here. Then from my friend in London Garival Vasi we would get 10 sacks, 20 sacks of dal from him. We realised we cannot get these products from here (Coventry), so we started to bring it from there. You have to think of your own idea about what type of business is going to make you money.
How did you start to sell door-to-door, was it by word of mouth?
Ram: If you go to one, then another would give you another's address that an Indian lives at such and such address. Then the third would tell you about the forth and so on. When you are doing the rounds you get to find out.
Then did you make a list of what they needed?
Ram: What ever we had, they could buy it.
If they needed something else would you bring it for them?
Ram: No not really, we did not have the time; we only sold what we had. If someone said we need this, we had no time. This work was done in our spare time. The main work was in the factory. Then after this we started our own business.
So how long did you do the van work?
Ram: 3-4 years.
Track 9
You did quite a lot of different things, but did you have time for a social life?
Ram: Well social life, first there was no Gurdwara in Coventry. Then when Harnall Lane was made we tried to play a part in it as well, what ever we could do. Then when the Mandir was made then we played a part in that as well. Then there was the Indian Work Association, we would come and go to the meetings. There was only a small amount of people, so they would invite you to get the numbers up. Then I joined the Labour party. Then Crossman (famous labour MP) in 1971 came to the factories because they kept an interest in who would support them, they needed voters. They had an interest in the factories because there were 30-35 girls working there. They approached everyone so that they would get votes. In India there was the Congress Party that we played a part in; here the parties were already made.
In the Gurdwara and Mandir can you tell us about your role?
Ram: We became life members and then afterwards other things came along. Now there are 10 Gurdwaras. Then there was a lot of love amongst the community and they felt a strong need to have a place where they could all get together and meet. Then afterwards there were a lot of Gujarati's and they wanted a Mandir. They needed help so they said come with us then that was made, when the interests grow then you have to go along with them.
Which was the first Mandir, was it the Stoney Stanton Road one?
Raj: The Eagle Street Church was where they first started up the Mandir.
Ram: First we used to go to someone's house and do things. First where the school was? Where the Mandir was made. Then people started to get separated, they began to notice differences; that these are Punjabi and these are Gujarati, then two Mandirs came about. The Gujarati's had one the Punjabi's had another. 274 Stoney Stanton Road was the place that was bought and that's where the Mandir was made.
Who is that the Punjabi's?
Ram: Yes the Punjabi's. This is how it worked. Similar to the Gurdwara's, first there was one, then the Ramgharia Gurdwara was made, at first everyone has passion that we make a place together, then when it is made the conflicts arise.
Track 10
Also as the community grows, the people get more.
Ram. Yes that makes a difference, look at all the Gurdwara's and Mandir's they are all busy. There is that many people you don't get a space to stand.
The more people the more colours. Did you help make the Mandir at Stoney Stanton Road?
Ram: Everyone helps.
So were the funds collected from the community?
Ram: Whatever there is it is made from the community, first there are the ones who start it so 2-4 people get together then as the interest grows the community joins in.
When the Harnall Lane Gurdwara was made everyone was interested in Coventry, whether they were farmers or from a different background. When the thing is made, then conflicts start to arise because there are so many different types of people, then they want there own place.
Track 11
No it's not that. Were you a member of the IWA from the start or do you still participate in it now?
Ram: No not now, back then there were less people, and the older men had an interest to get all the Indians together. Now there are so many people, it is difficult to get together family never mind anyone else.
Did you ever feel when you came to Coventry indifferent or like an outsider?
Ram: Not everyone is the same. The police were good then in the road they used to go around themselves and if someone had a problem they would help you. They knew who lived where in each street. Now they go around in the cars. Back then, they were so helpful. If they saw an Indian who was new and could not speak English, they would take them to another Indian house nearby and ask them to help them. When you met someone who could speak your own mother tongue they would help you find where you wanted to go or meet.
So the time was good?
Ram: The people were good here. But there were jealous people as well.
Our people?
The men at the top (in the work place) felt a difference and it bothered them to see Indian people doing machine work.
Were they our people?
No their people (English), not everyone is the same; there were good people as well. Now everyone has mixed well.
Track 13
Aunty how did you find it here? Did you stay at home mostly? How did you spend your time?
Raj: The housework never finished. When I first came 6-7 people lived in one house, where 2 names are written, right the third one. Write his name as well (she is referring to track 4 question 5).
Ram: Where are the two written?
Raj: Ramesh and Pardeep's are written.
Son: There are 3 of us, 3 brothers. Ramesh is the eldest; Suresh then there is myself.
Raj: He is in the middle of them. When we came, two people would go out the door and four would come through the door. (?). In the evening everyone got together and someone would say I am coming another would say they are coming; depending on how many came you kept making the food.
How did you cope? How did you adjust when you came here?
Raj: When I came I had my 3 older children from India.
Were they all born here?
Raj: Suresh and Pardeep were born here. Prem, Ramesh, Santosh, they are 2 girls and 1 boy they were from India. In the morning the children would go to school, I would do the housework, then it would be lunchtime so the children would come home to eat roti (chapattis), wash and iron the clothes, someone would visit or I would visit them, then at 3:30 the children would come home. Then you would start on the evening meal.
What did you used to give the children to eat?
Raj: Then it was mainly roti (chapattis).
Ram: One or two times we would bring fish and chips, the children were not bothered and neither were we. Since the new generation (Indian) have been born they want dinners and MacDonald's. Before there was nothing. There was Kentucky Fried Chicken. That was only when we came from Birmingham at night we would think lets take the children to eat there. It was mainly at home. Food was served 3 times at home.
Ram: Whatever the time was like is how we lived then.
How many other women were here when you came to Coventry?
Raj: There were 6/7 houses where we first lived on Eagle Street, near Ena Road.
Ram: In the 60's a lot of people started to come.
Raj: When I came there was 5-6 families, afterwards more came.
Did you meet them and was there any friendship?
Raj: Yes there was, sometimes if they had time they would come to my house, if I had time I would go. It was after the children's lunchtime, if we had an hour to spare we would go to each other's houses.
What did you used to do together?
Raj: Nothing, sit and eat and talk.
What did you talk about?
Raj: (She laughs) What was there to really talk about, bringing the children and taking them to school, often the children would come and sit by us. In Leicester Causeway there used to be open gardens, we used to think we have some spare time sitting here let's take the children there. Where we lived the neighbours were horrible, they wouldn't let the children play, so if they did not let our children play how could we invite anyone else's children to come and play. Although they did play on the streets.
Were there any parks?
Raj: I never went to the parks. When Suresh was born we became busy with him. Then he was born (referring to her son Pardeep who is sitting in the room). I never got to go to the parks.
Track 14
How about English? Were you educated here?
Raj: Nothing, I could write and read a little Punjabi, but the men never knew English, never mind the women.
So when you came here how did you cope?
Raj: Here we stayed mainly at home and didn't really go shopping. First we never went, we stayed busy with the kids, we would just get the children's things. However when my husband worked in the Courtaulds, I would do the shopping in the afternoon and get what ever we needed.
Did you remember back home ever?
Raj: Yes you do. When you come here you are alone, you leave all your family, you do remember them.
Here there would not have been as much support compared to back home in the villages.
Raj: Here we had to get support from our children, and ask them to do things for us. When there were 5-6 people waiting to eat, whose support were you to get. I would have made half the food and then the elder daughter Prem would take over making the roti (chapattis) and I would go and serve them the food. She was only 9-10 years of age when she started to make the roti (chapattis); the kids then didn't keep playing and not do any housework.
Ram: That's how the times were then.
Raj: In those days in the older classes the children may have told their teachers we could not do the homework, but they never said in the house we cannot do the housework.
Did you ever feel like going outside to do work or did you never find the time?
Raj: Never had any time.
Ram: In those days women never worked. It was only afterwards they started to.
Raj: When we had the factory we got even busier. In the house I would feed two people and 4 more would come. The previous chores had not been completed. In the evening you would say the factory women have already gone home and taken their wage, and here I am still doing housework. No one ever knew if you needed a servant, how long you would need him or her for, only the person who stayed at home would know (?).
Ram: That's how the times were and you had to just cope.
Even so it was hard for the ladies and they were alone. Before in the village there was the support of the family, here the person is alone.
Raj: Yes alone.
The women were in a different country as well.
Raj: It was not like that for everyone. If it was just your own family it would not have been much work, for example if you have 4 people living with you.
In 1966, 70, 90, so many people came from the village in India, they came and stayed at our house, there were 20 people living with us in Eagle Street at one time.
Ram: They were relatives.
Raj: Everyone was taken care of in our home. If someone came to stay for instance, sometimes they wouldn't even pick up their glass and put it away. I would wash all their clothes and make their roti (chapattis). There were no washing machines. (?)
Track 15
The children were like the older generation, then the children and the girls were different, they did all the housework, and they didn't stay outside and do nothing.
Were all the clothes washed by hand?
Raj: Yes all by hand.
Were there no laundries?
Raj: Only sometimes, if the bedding was to be washed and it would not dry easily. The bigger clothes were more difficult to wash from home.
Ram: The laundrettes with the machines came about afterwards. The corporate people (?) would collect the clothes from outside your house; you would tie a sack outside and write down what was inside it. These were how the times were back then. Then they would drop them back off outside your front door. If you needed an extra milk bottle you would leave 6p more under the empty bottle and they would know you need another bottle of milk. People were honest. They steal your purse and run nowadays. Things that were left outside were never taken.
The milk was left outside and not taken.
Ram: The milk was delivered outside, some would want 2 bottles, some 4 bottles, you left the money and in the morning the milkman would take the empty bottles.
How did you find this city? Did you like it or dislike it?
Raj: When you come this far, you have to live here with your children and husband. All day when you are busy at home your mind does not wonder where you are. If a person is free then you think I want to go out, what shall I do, if you drop one job, then do another, then another, you never have spare time.
Track16
I know you used to sell clothes to other people, but what did you do about your own Indian clothes?
Raj: At first we did not buy anything, we used to wear a sari; we had bought them from India. We would wear them or someone would bring one back from India. I will tell you the truth the day her mother (referring to the other lady in the room) died I went to the funeral and I wore a sari, there were 70-80 women there they all wore Indian suits, it was that day I felt so embarrassed that I was the only one wearing a sari. This does not look right. In our own society they all wear saris. It was after her mother's funeral I had one suit made. I felt if I had another occasion I had a suit to wear. Then when I went to India I would leave that one there and get another one or two made. Now after 8-10 years I have started wearing suits.
Do you not wear saris now?
Raj: Only when I have to go to a wedding. I find it easy to wear suits. I don't go out much. Before I used to wear saris and do all the housework, it was hard to manage the sari never mind the housework. (Laughs). The sari would have a print or embroidery on it, now I wear them to weddings.
Your children who were born in India, how old were they when they came from India?
Raj: The youngest was 6 ½ when she came here and sent to school. Ramesh was 8 years old, Prem was 9 years old.
Ram: There is 1 ½ year's difference between them all.
What school did they go to?
Raj: John Gulson School.
Did your children who were born in India go there as well?
Ram: First Suresh was born. There was the 11+ 13+ exams back then, when passing they went on to Oxford Crescent School.
They were educated at Grammar school. They are good schools.
Ram: Yes
So they were educated well?
Raj: Then they went onto University. It was near us ,one was on this side of us (?) on Leicester Causeway.
Ram: It was dependent on age. Oxford Crescent was from 11+
Raj: Then there was a school on Broad Street. Then they went to Broad Street for a while, and then when they did the 13+ exams, they went there. He did not go there (referring to her son in the room).
Son: It was the 3 eldest who went to the Oxford School. Then Suresh my eldest brother went to John Gulson School and after to Harnall Lodge Boarding School. He was boarding at Leamington. Then after Leamington he went to King Henry 8th School. Out of all of us he is the one who has had the private education. Then when I went to John Gulson, I went onto Caludon Castle, it was a comprehensive school. Then we both went to university, he was one of the few then who had private education.
Track 17
Ram: There were no shops then.
Raj: When Suresh was born on Broad Street there was a clinic. Where we used to buy milk tins, we would bring the milk tins and make Gulab Jaman, Barfi, Baisan and other things (all Indian sweets).
Did you know how to make all of these things before?
Raj: No, I learnt here, no one made these things at home back in India. We learnt everything here. Then we kept learning and making different things. When visitors came we would make Barfi, Gulab Jaman, Baisan (all Indian sweets). Out of all the women who lived there, if one had the child she would tell me to go and get the milk, and if I needed it I would tell them to get the milk. Whoever had the child. From the clinic you could get one tin for only ½ crown, in the chemist it was 3 shillings.
Did you ask each other or did you have an idea how to make the sweet food?
Raj: Yes who ever knew you would ask them. Muthyia (Indian sweet) would be made at home. We made Onion bargee already at home.
In that time, do you remember whose wedding you saw after coming here?
Raj: Here we did a lot of weddings and saw many.
Ram and Raj: Relatives weddings. Then in the family as well.
In those days where did the weddings take place?
Raj: In the school you booked a hall and did the wedding there. 2-4 women friends would get together at home and make Muthyia, Onion Bargee and Salted nick knacks. You would call them over; in ours and yours everyone does this (different Indian cultures).
Before the women came over, did you see any weddings then?
Ram: There were no ladies. You would feed roti (chapattis) to the 2-4 men in the house. The lava (Sikh wedding ceremony) was done in the house and the wedding was completed. There were 10-12 people from both sides and the wedding happened.
Raj: There were no men then, the ladies didn't used to go in the Barat as well.
Ram: The circle of people was small back then. The first wedding we did, it was a Bedi wedding, like you would have a lava wedding. We filled the saucepans up with mud and gave a bath (?).
Raj: In Birmingham.
Ram: It was in the house, there were no pundits (Hindu priests) then it was all done in the house, there were no holy men then to do the ceremony. If someone had a Guru Granth Sahib, then it was bought home. Then the Gurdwara's came about and the Guru Granth Sahib started to be taken to peoples houses, then after a while they decided they were not sending the Guru Granth Sahib's home. Then we had an order to do it at the Gurdwara's, and then the times changed.
First you had to manage with the way things were.
Ram: First it was easy; you made the girls clothes and sent them off. Now you have to spend £20,000 on the hall, just on feeding the guests. That's how the times were. In our time no one ever saw £20 000. Back then, you would save up £100-200. With great difficulty you would earn 10-12 a week.
Raj: At the weddings you used to spend £500-600. You used to make do. You would make the food from home.
Ram: With time it changes.
Was there a Goldsmith back then?
Raj: There was one Goldsmith he was an old man.
Ram: There was not one here first, and then he got the idea that there may be business, and then with the more women that came over, the more there was a need for a Goldsmith.
Raj: We used to buy a lot of gold to give to people.
Ram: For one tola of gold it used to be £5-6 in those days. It was 15-16 ounces of gold. Now for the same amount of gold it is £100. Quite a lot of difference. Wages have increased as well.